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Jim Collins

PixarsBiggestFan wrote:
They always show the teaser trailer for the June Disney film in front of the November Disney film.

[joy_80_anim_gif_zpsmv9th5wx]CAN'T wait!!!

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Luis504170
I´m in no way a Frozen hater but i kinda have the idea that the reason people started disliking Frozen was not because it was successful, but because it was literally shoved in our faces everywhere. The merchandising and advertising Disney pulled post-release was just ridiculous. 

I personally think that the music in Frozen is one of the best Disney has ever done, up there with The Lion King in fact. The movie itself is very good. I wouldn`t put it in my Top 10 Disney personally, but I think it´s well told and highly rewatchable. It does have some story problems (regardless of how successful it is) 

People don`t have a tendency to automatically hate something successful, I think it`s just that we are over-saturated with some of those successful things. Kinda like a one of those catchy pop songs, everyone loves it but then it`s overplayed and you can`t get away from it and then you hate it. That`s why Disney needs to learn how to properly sell their stuff, sometimes less is more. Moana was not merchandised nearly as much as Frozen and people to this day still like it. But yes, I truly believe that in a couple more years, Frozen will solidify itself and the hate will die down, especially with each new Disney release. 

Now, here in the forums, most of us aren´t hating "Olaf´s Frozen Adventure" because it´s Frozen. We are expressing frustration because it is literally a 21 minute short film that is being forcefully played in front of a movie we payed to see. We love those 4-6 minute short films. But 21!!! That`s just ridiculous. I will be forever grateful if this short does help bring out more people to see Coco as I´m not seeing much excitement from the general public. Although I doubt it would be a great help.
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Luis504170
PixarsBiggestFan wrote:
They always show the teaser trailer for the June Disney film in front of the November Disney film.


Actually, could it be possible if we get The Incredibles 2 teaser as early as October? Considering Coco gets it`s initial release on October for Mexico and they might want to have  a trailer for them? Has this happened before? Can someone confirm or deny?
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Bonnie
Oh boy, are we all giving our opinion on Frozen?!


Okay guys, I'm sorry for veering a bit off topic here, but this post just kept on growing and growing and I've spent too much time on it to kill it now.


I hate the writing in that movie.


First of all, Olaf himself is blatantly shoved in there without purpose and I'd put money on the idea he was a last minute addition. They just set up this whole problem (which, I'm willing to admit, would actually make a pretty cute movie in and of itself) for him, give him a song to sing about it in which the plot grinds to a halt, then just resolve this issue within five seconds, and the parts between that don't fit in well. Okay, so no reaction to experiencing heat, your stated goal? You KNOW WHAT MELTING IS!? But that whole song implied you didn't! That was meant to be the whole conflict! And he does one thing in the whole movie that isn't following the other characters around making jokes (a pointless cutesy sidekick staple at this point; way to break conventions, Frozen!). 


Off of that, I can't stand the smugness oozing out of that movie. "Love at first sight is SO ridiculous and unrealistic, right guys? I hope you agree because we're going to spend half the movie beating on it! But loving someone so much you're willing to die for them based solely on some incredibly faded memories from 13 years ago and the fact that you both share some DNA? TOTALLY realistic and believable! In fact, it's such a strong foundation let's spend absolutely no time building anything remotely resembling an actual relationship between these two! Except for them both liking chocolate, you know, that thing the grand majority of the people on the planet love!" (Really, they might as well have said "Mmmmmm...oxygen!".)

They had plenty of time to establish an actual relationship. Or, rather, they WOULD'VE, had they had their priorities straight and realized that maybe, just maybe, they should actually spend some time on the relationship they're hanging the entire movie on, rather than spending it all on pointless misdirection. Even the Duke character has nothing to do with building up the two as siblings, he's there for MORE MISDIRECTION. Why the hell did that even need to be a twist, other than it's more smug that way? I wouldn't mind it being a twist if both the twist and the relationship were handled well, but they're not. 

And that related to Olaf's uselessness, too. You'd think that he might tie back to what happened originally, maybe bring those memories back for Anna, but he never does. In fact, the whole movie, despite putting the entire weight of the supposedly central relationship on that opening, just kind of ignores that opening. What about that one time Elsa genuinely almost killed you, Anna? Does anyone want to mention it instead of just insisting over and over that Elsa would never hurt anyone? What about the thirteen years of being ignored? That doesn't matter at all? If you're so super accepting of her shouldn't you maybe be a little ticked she kept those secret and shoved you away for over a decade, for no reason (as far as you know)? 


Even setting aside its smugness and crummily written relationships, you have the issue of Hans' illogical plan (Yeah, I'm sure monarchies just hand out the throne to whoever claims to have married the now-dead princess with no proof whatsoever all the time), and the god awful implementation of Elsa's powers. They're poorly explained, both in their implementation ("Sometimes, when I get angry and just flick my hand in the direction of other things, it creates literal ice on the surface of things, but other times it goes right through clothing, skin, and flesh to slowly freeze people! And fear makes me not control my powers well, unless it's a fight scene, in which I'm fearing for my life but also clearly 100% doing whatever I want with them!"), and how it's just dropped in with no explanation. No, comparing it, the world where we see a grand total of one person and get no explanation for why there's just the one, to worlds like The Incredibles and Harry Potter, where there are tons of people and either they are known by society or get an explanation why they aren't, doesn't excuse the blatant crummy re-writing. They are not the same thing. You can't just play the "Magic is just a natural part of life" card and the "Magic is unusual and feared"  card in the same film without explaining anything.


Then there's Anna's wonderful moment of amazing idiocy. Gonna go out in a snow storm? Just throw a cloak over that sundress; you'll be fine! See, if they're actually established a relationship between the two, and played the scene as a snappy "Quick, I've gotta move fast before she gets too far!" that'd be excused. But they don't. So she just comes off as stupid. 


And call me nitpicky if you want, but there is no reason whatsoever a big budget, 2013 computer animated film, in which snow is the big animation centerpiece, 12 years after Pixar accurately represented how snow sticks to people's bodies in Monsters, Inc., to still have snow going right through people.

Look at this;

[com-6694]
[com-9968]  [com-6841] 
I presume I don't need to elaborate that snow does not politely swerve away from people standing in the middle of blizzards so their clothes and hair remain pristine. Or that you're not coming out of being thrown into snow without your clothes being covered. And I don't want to hear anything about "Oh Elsa's just making sure none of it hits them", because "OH NO I CAN'T CONTROL MY POWERS WHEN I'M EMOTIONAL!" and she doesn't even know Kristoff's there! 

(Yeah, I know at one or two points they actually have things sticking to them, they still don't plenty of times.)



Alright, sorry, had to go off on all of that.



Jim Collins wrote:
@PixarsBiggestFan how do you know that the Incredibles 2 teaser will be released this November? [confused]

As for Frozen, I honestly don't understand why succesful movies automatically cause a great number of people to hate them. In fact, "Frozen" reminds me of "Titanic": Initially, it was either criticized for various reasons and no one expected it to became the phenomenon it became. Once it became a box-office hit and earned a lot of money from merchandise (as well as many awards) people started hating it and calling it overrated, pretty much like Frozen. But, IMHO, a film that crosses more than 1 BILLION dollars in the worlwide box-office and earns the amount of money Frozen did, has to be good!



That's not very good reasoning. Plenty of crummy movies make tons of money and plenty of wonderful ones make little money.


Minions also crossed the billion line, lots of people agree that movie sucked. 

The Transformers films are constantly the subject of ridicule for being poorly made yet constantly pull in piles of cash. 

Kung Fu Panda 2 and Hangover 2 came out on the same weekend, the former netting an 81% on Rotten Tomatoes, and the latter getting a 33%. The latter won at the box office. 

Blue Sky Studios' most critically praised film is The Peanuts Movie. Blue Sky Studios' lowest grossing film is The Peanuts Movie. Their highest grossing is their second worst received; Ice Age 4.

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I understand why there are people who don't like it, or don't consider it to be one of the best Disney animated movies, but please stop hating it.



No.

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Either some of you like it or not, it's still a money-grubber and both Disney & Pixar propably thought it would be best to release it before "Coco", because, like it or not, it is one of the least expected films of the year. And that is HUGE for a Pixar film. 


Disney has to deal with competition just like everyone else, except, unlike everyone else, they own half the competition. I don't exactly feel bad for them. And maybe if they already had one movie "fail" (in other words, perform very well, it's just that Pixar's budgets are huge) in this slot, don't put another movie there? 


And I'm sick and tired of hearing "Well they need to do this to make more money for their movies" from this company. I'm told I shouldn't be annoyed by the tons of sequels because they need those to bankroll the more risky movies. I'm told I shouldn't be annoyed by Cars because they need that to bankroll the more risky movies. Now they need THIS to make the more risky movie less risky? I thought covering the more risky movies was what that other crud was for! 

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"Olaf's Frozen Adventure" may be long and I understand why many people don't like the idea, but PLEASE stop hating it before you even see it. And for those who say they're going to show up to the theatre 20 minutes after the beginning, you're just being way too dramatic.


I didn't buy a ticket for an Olaf short. I don't want to see an Olaf short. It's not overly dramatic anymore than not watching all of the bonus features on DVDs/Blu-Rays is overly dramatic; just because they handed it to me bundled with something I actually want doesn't mean I need to see it.

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Besides, it's ONLY 20 minutes. If it was more than 30 minutes (for example) I'd agree with you. But 20 minutes is not that big for a featurette, and time flies quickly in a theatre.


Twenty minutes is absolutely that big a deal. Everything else I've seen in a theater has been either 1. a feature length film, or 2. a short, five minutes, tops.

The sole exception to this, MAYBE, is the Pixar tour before the special screenings of Inside Out. Only shown before said special screenings, not every screening, not even the majority of them. 

Time moves fast when you're watching something you actually WANT to see. 

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See it, and then you'll be able to judge the film.


Do you go see literally every movie that comes out, in theaters or DTV? Do you watch everything offered to you on TV? Because if you don't then you've rejected watching things based on premise alone, which is exactly what people are doing for the Frozen short. 


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Personally, I CAN'T wait to see it because it looks awesome (from the trailer) and will definetely be a long-remembered holiday movie. 




Well yeah, Disney owns several TV channels they can constantly replay it on whether it's worth replaying or not.
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Jim Collins

Luis504170 wrote:
I´m in no way a Frozen hater but i kinda have the idea that the reason people started disliking Frozen was not because it was successful, but because it was literally shoved in our faces everywhere. The merchandising and advertising Disney pulled post-release was just ridiculous.

Disney advertised it so much because it was succesful. When a movie seems to gain people's hearts, it is an obvious outcome that the company that produced it takes advantage of its popularity, by advertising it and/or making more and more merhandise. And Frozen's merch was selling like crazy, that's why they kept making new products. In other words, when a movie sells a great number of merchandise, companies advertise it more, which means that a movie is succesful. That's why I said that people tend to "hate" succesful films.

Luis504170 wrote:
I will be forever grateful if this short does help bring out more people to see Coco as I´m not seeing much excitement from the general public. Although I doubt it would be a great help.

I think it will most definitely help "Coco", because no one can deny that a great number of the millions "Cinderella" earned in the box-office back in 2015, was thanks to "Frozen Fever".

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Jim Collins
Bonnie wrote:
And call me nitpicky if you want, but there is no reason whatsoever a big budget, 2013 computer animated film, in which snow is the big animation centerpiece, 12 years after Pixar accurately represented how snow sticks to people's bodies in Monsters, Inc., to still have snow going right through people.

I respect your opinion on the film, but some of your reasons are insignificant. Most of the details you mentioned are rather "plot holes" (that every movie has) and are basically due to the major changes the script went through a couple of months before its release (because of "Let it Go"). And let's not forget that the film was originally supposed to be released in 2014, but was moved to November '13. Don't get me wrong, Frozen may be my all time favourite animated movie, but I agree that the script is not perfect. However, the songs, direction, voice-acting, humor and animation of this film makes *most of us* forget the (often) bad writing. As for the animation of the snow, you may not like this movie, but you can't deny that it has breathtaking animation. I have never seen snow look so good in an animated movie before. There may be some goofs, but again, all movies have goofs.

Bonnie wrote:
That's not very good reasoning. Plenty of crummy movies make tons of money and plenty of wonderful ones make little money.

I didn't say people hate EVERY single succesful film, I just said that, most of the films that are considered "phenomenons" tend to be hated by many.

Bonnie wrote:
Do you go see literally every movie that comes out, in theaters or DTV? Do you watch everything offered to you on TV? Because if you don't then you've rejected watching things based on premise alone, which is exactly what people are doing for the Frozen short.

Watching TV and going to see a film are two entirely different things. When you turn your TV on, or when you go to a theatre to decide which film you're going to see, you have a variety of films/shows to choose. But when you have chosen to see a particular film, you can't just "wait outside 'till a stupid short ends". This is just ridiculus. I understand and accept your frustration about this being 21 minutes, but no one can do anything about it. Just see it (either you like it or not) and then you'll have an opinion. It could be something you'll LOVE and regret criticising it at first. 






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PixarsBiggestFan
Actually, being a successful film does not necessarily mean the producers will go crazy pumping out merchandise.

Here are some examples within the Disney brand:

•Finding Nemo, Finding Dory - both are universally acclaimed, blockbusters, however the amount of merch is very minimal beyond select school supplies, home aquarium decor, and plush. In fact, live clownfish sold better than actual movie merchandise (not including the DVD and VHS in 2003)

•Inside Out - universally acclaimed, blockbuster, significantly low amount of merch in all areas outside of blu-rays/DVDs (The Good Dinosaur actually has more merch than Inside Out)

•Zootopia - universally acclaimed, blockbuster, the only merch I have seen are blu-rays/DVDs and posters

•Live-action Beauty and the Beast, Live-action The Jungle Book - very positive reviews, blockbusters, literally no merch other than blu-rays/DVDs, posters, and a very low amount of decorative figurines for Beauty and the Beast

And there are people who dislike these films (none of them have a 100% audience rating on Rotten Tomatoes). I also know people who dislike the Toy Story 3 because of its story (it has more merch than any film above, but doesn’t go crazy with it like Frozen and Cars). I also know many people who dislike the Cars films because of their plot and characters, which have nothing to do with the hundreds of types of merch the franchise has)
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Jim Collins

PixarsBiggestFan wrote:
Actually, being a successful film does not necessarily mean the producers will go crazy pumping out merchandise. Here are some examples within the Disney brand:

•Finding Nemo, Finding Dory

•Inside Out

•Zootopia

•Live-action Beauty and the Beast, Live-action The Jungle Book

I feel like you're wrong for more than half of the movies you mentioned. Back in 2003, "Finding Nemo" was everywhere! Toys, plushies, board games, figures, school stuff, books, mugs... It was literally everywhere! (That propably depends on where you live, though). Same goes for "Finding Dory", because last year (and even now) every single toy store near me is full of the aforementioned products. In fact, I saw more merchandise for Finding Dory, that for the first one. As for "Inside Out", it may not have had the merch "Frozen" did, but I do remember seing millions of plushies and figures last year. Even now, a toy store near me has plenty of pop! figures and board games. "Zootopia" is indeed one of the most succesful animated movies of all time with little to zero merchandise. However, a toy store near me also has plushies, pop! figures and some mugs. Some Disney Stores have many products of the film, though. Furthermore, I believe that "Beauty and the Beast" had (and still has) a great number of merch, ranging from thousands of dolls, figures, school stuff and even puzzles. I doubt that this film is in the list of "films with zero merch", because I have a huge collection of merch from the movie, which I easily found. "Jungle Book", however, has ZERO merch. Not that I care about it, but I honestly haven't seen a product based on the film. Propably because the animated one's merch was also little to zero, and not many people compained about it. 

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PixarsBiggestFan
Where I live, all the toy stores are dominated by Pixar Cars, Frozen, and Toy Story. As for other films, they get a little when they come out but that’s about it.
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Gray Catbird
More than anything, perhaps it's most fascinating to see how strongly we feel when it comes to Frozen?

To give my two cents, I enjoyed Frozen quite a bit, and I actually think it did some innovative things that can explain its success (there are not many films in this category with two main female characters, and Disney had to do something like Hans at some point). But perhaps it's should be noted that I am generally a pretty forgiving viewer, too.
(Regarding the merchandise, that seems to be a whole other topic, but I think they are just following the rules of the market. I dunno, it's not something that I pay much attention to.)

As for this new short, I am dubious of the premise (Elsa getting depressed because they have no family traditions seems a bit overrreacting), but like everyone else I think the main problem is that 21 minutes is way, way too long. I really hope general audiences can take it without walking out in confusion... But since Frozen seems genuinely very popular with general audiences, despite what it may seem in certain circles, I think the inclusion of this special will help Coco more than it harms, and if so, all the better.
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Bonnie
I've got to disagree with those examples, Pixar'sBiggestFan.

I'd point more to WALL-E, Up, Ratatouille, and The Incredibles. 

Or another company. I think if you added up all the Dreamworks merchandise I've seen in stores in my life you might get like one tenth of the Cars merchandise I've seen in stores. If you added Blue Sky movie merchandise to that number, it'd still be about a tenth. 

(Not counting international merchandise. I think this forum is the one where I saw that big Ratatouille giftshop in Disneyland Paris. Ice Age makes the majority of its money overseas, so if they were going to bother I imagine they'd bother somewhere else. )

Jim Collins wrote:

I respect your opinion on the film, but some of your reasons are insignificant.



That isn't up to you to decide.

Even if it was, if you keep piling bad things on top of each other, it becomes a much bigger problem. 


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Most of the details you mentioned are rather "plot holes" (that every movie has)



You can make the argument every movie has a few little mess ups. They do not ALL have a mess of a script. 

And spending no time building up a relationship that's supposed to be vital to the script is not a plot hole, nor is characters acting like morons, bringing the plot to a halt for a song, not keeping characters consistent, unsatisfying pay offs, etc. 

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and are basically due to the major changes the script went through a couple of months before its release (because of "Let it Go"). And let's not forget that the film was originally supposed to be released in 2014, but was moved to November '13.



It's a professionally made movie, not a homework assignment; what happened behind the scenes is fun to learn about after, but not an excuse for anything, they're still supposed to deliver a quality product.


And quite frankly, if their script changes messed up the plot THAT MUCH, maybe they shouldn't have done them. From my understanding this wasn't a Ratatouille-esque situation where the film just flat out wasn't working and they had to change the script, they just were like "Wait, let's do this now!".


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Don't get me wrong, Frozen may be my all time favourite animated movie, but I agree that the script is not perfect. However, the songs, direction, voice-acting, humor and animation of this film makes *most of us* forget the (often) bad writing.



I feel very strongly about writing being the most important thing in a movie. If a movie's writing sucks, I'm not going to call it a good movie. I've seen movies that hit those elements better than Frozen and I don't call them good either because their writing's bad (though notably less smug and therefore less infuriating than Frozen). 


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As for the animation of the snow, you may not like this movie, but you can't deny that it has breathtaking animation. I have never seen snow look so good in an animated movie before. There may be some goofs, but again, all movies have goofs.

 

It's a blatant mistake right in the center of the screen, several times, for long periods of time, involving something that's supposed to be the animation highlight of the film. I actually don't see mistakes like that in every film (and I've NEVER seen anything go through a character's body before or since, like the braid), or even in most films. Getting other things right doesn't excuse it.

And sure, if the writing was good, I'd consider this a minor thing that really should've been fixed but isn't something to really berate the film over. But it wasn't. So it's already used up all my patience. 


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I didn't say people hate EVERY single succesful film, I just said that, most of the films that are considered "phenomenons" tend to be hated by many.

 


I was responding to this;

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But, IMHO, a film that crosses more than 1 BILLION dollars in the worlwide box-office and earns the amount of money Frozen did, has to be good!


"It made lots of money; it must be good!" is illogical and demonstrably untrue.


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Watching TV and going to see a film are two entirely different films. When you turn your TV on, or when you go to a theatre to decide which film you're going to see, you have a variety of films/shows to choose. But when you have chosen to see a particular film, you can't just "wait outside 'till a stupid short ends". This is just ridiculus. I understand and accept your frustration about this being 21 minutes, but no one can do anything about it. Just see it (either you like it or not) and then you'll have an opinion. It could be something you'll LOVE and regret criticising it at first.



That's not the point; you're decrying people for "judging" before we watch it by deciding we don't want to see it when deciding something isn't worth your time based on premise is the normal way people judge things. Just because this came packaged with something else doesn't mean we need to watch it. 

You just keep saying something's ridiculous without actually giving any reason why. You also just said that 21 minutes is such a super short time to sit listening to a character you don't like, but apparently it's ridiculous to hang around a theater lobby for that amount of time. 

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but no one can do anything about it. 


...except not be there to watch it. 


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Just see it (either you like it or not) and then you'll have an opinion. It could be something you'll LOVE and regret criticising it at first.


Or I could hate it and it could put me in a sour mood before Coco. Equally likely. MORE likely, I've established I don't like this franchise.

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